Ep. 85: Metaverse offers several opportunities for apparel brands Podcast

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Ep. 85: Metaverse offers several opportunities for apparel brands

In this episode of The WTiN Podcast, we talk to Dr Giovanna Graziosi Casimiro, head of Metaverse Fashion Week at Decentraland.

WTiN
Hello, my name is Jessica Owen and I'm part of the team here at WTiN. And this is the WTiN podcast. Join me, my colleagues and our guests every month as we talk about new and interesting innovations from across the textile and apparel industry. Whether it's talking to sustainable startups quizzing experts on the latest research and development, or chatting to companies about their most recent products, you can rest assured that the WTiN podcast will connect you with everything you need to know. In this episode, we talk to Giovanna Graziosi Casimiro, who was head of the metaverse fashion week at decentraland. GG clears up some definitions about what the metaverse and FTS and web three R. She talks about what went down at this year's Metaverse Fashion Week. And she provides her thoughts on how the textile and apparel industry can benefit from investing in this virtual world.

Well, hello, GG, and welcome to the WTiN podcast. I hear you've been travelling all over the place a bit recently. So thank you very much for finding the time to join me today. How are you?

Giovanna Graziosi Casimiro
I'm good, Jessica. And thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here with you. Yes, I have been travelling but I think that's just a regular thing in my life. So we work. We work around and I'm super happy to be here to chat with you excited?

WTiN
Yes, me too. I mean, well, today you can stay put and we're going to talk about a destination. That's pretty new to people still. And that's the metaverse and if I'm being completely candid, I know very little about the metaverse, and I'm sure many of our listeners are like newbies a bit like me, too. So yeah, I'm thrilled to have this opportunity today to kind of pick your brains all about it.

Giovanna Graziosi Casimiro
This is a beautiful opportunity. And I really love to engage talking to people about what is the metaverse because I think none of us really know exactly what is the metaphor, because it is a real time you study case being built by all of us. So let's figure out together and let's share our thoughts and I'm here to bring some provoking thoughts. So I think it's nice for us to think about what we want for the metaverse and what we're doing to achieve what we want.

WTiN
Yes, exactly. Well, I mean, before we go any further then I mean, what's your definition of the metaverse? I mean, what actually is it to someone who's got no clue?

Giovanna Graziosi Casimiro
My personal understanding of the metaverse of course is this sort of immersive internet, right? Where we are able to socialise to do shopping. But it is very immersive. And I think should be technology agnostic. Like could be VR could be AR augmented reality virtual reality, but most of it I think Metaverse should be in the blockchain and open source, which means should be an internet that is immersive and it is built by many people, from people to people. This is how I hope to see the metaverse shaping. That's what I'm working for.

WTiN
Okay, so is it? Am I right in thinking that decentraland Den is kind of one example of one of these immersive virtual worlds, which makes it one example of the metaverse but there could be several developed by other companies.

Giovanna Graziosi Casimiro
Totally Correct. Yes. Okay. People sometimes the desire to create the metaverse says Okay, so this is the metaverse or this is the metaverse or this company is the metaverse or the other one. I think Metaverse, is that actually a huge collection of different universes that are virtual, they're immersive. And yes, decentraland will be one of those the same way. There's so many others creating beautiful things out there in different ways with different governances. And they all feed into what the metaverse is.

WTiN
And that's not to be confused with a multiverse either because that threw me a few weeks ago watching one of these Marvel films and I was like, nope, let's keep these separate. That's something else.

Giovanna Graziosi Casimiro
The idea of like, multi universes or multiverse, or Metaverse, I think that they kind of they meet somewhere because of course, we're talking about main universes within one. But then I think that your multiverse goes way beyond the context of like web we need to really more about like all the possible universes existing within the physics and the understanding of time space, so that I think it's way beyond so Metaverse is pretty much like this huge universe composed by many others, that they will be eventually connected. And for now I think we are seeing that as immersive virtual Worlds. Eventually maybe the metaverse will come out of these screens, and they will be around us with mixed reality we will see.

WTiN
Yeah, definitely. And so, right, if we focus on decentraland, then what exactly can can people do that you said, like shopping? And can you like build your own land? I mean, is it a bit like sims or, or Minecraft, like those kinds of games?

Giovanna Graziosi Casimiro
Yes, so first of all, I'm a big fan of The Sims. So I definitely grew up playing The Sims so much. And it is mainly we like to say that decentraland is a social experiment. So more than necessarily playing or, or buying something. It's about meeting people, and socialising. So in a sense, is a way to create like social interactions, and community. So this is the main thing people do. When they go there, they start interacting with other users, they start going to this Trix inside Genesis city, which is the main city that represents decentraland. And they start participating on events, shows, panel talks, roundtables, are so many things going on in the platform every day. So this is the main thing. But we do have of course, a lot of other interactions, including buying land, leasing, land, building your own space, your own headquarters, sometimes shopping, physical products, which is like products that you can purchase online, as an NFT, and you'll receive a physical version of it, you can buy NF T's, you can buy digital fashion, and more and more brands are bringing those experiences that are more of immersive branding experience, engaging their own fans, their own community. So there's so many things you can do. And there is yes, in association with Minecraft, I think, because Minecraft four was this first application and space where people could really build things and even create algorithms within there. So this remains in decentraland. It's all about building the world together.

WTiN
Okay. Now, you've already mentioned two terms, NFT. And I think web three. Now, excuse my naivety, but I hear these a lot, but I'm still not 100% sure what they are. So do you mind kind of explaining what they both mean, please?

Giovanna Graziosi Casimiro
Right. I think the web three is a term that we are making in real time also. But it is considered like the next stage of what web two was. So we had different stages of how the intranet was being built, and how we interact with it. So for example, in the web two, we were really able to write and post things on the internet and ride, we created this practice of users creating content. But I see that in the web, too. We had to use tools that they were not up to us to build, right. For example, when you go to a social media platform, you can post content, but you cannot change the way that content is displayed, or how that platform looks like in the web three, besides it being spatial, because you see 3d worlds rather than 2d pages, right web pages or scroll feeds, you can actually build those worlds. So web three has this big mission to first of all, be spatial, more three dimensional, and second, to allow people to actually build the tools together, not just post things, but build and define how things will be posted how they look like, how are the rules of those digital spaces we're building. So it's more participative than the web to innocence. Now nfts They're pretty much like smart contracts and tokens, right? Like non fungible tokens as that's how we call which are technically digital assets that are are related to a NFT a smart contract and of course, a digital address. So, it is pretty much if you had an object that is 100% assured to be yours or to have a clear ownership that is unchangeable. That's the thing you cannot you cannot change or fake that is a acid that it is associated to a particular address in the blockchain. And that can be changed only if you make a transaction to change that ownership to somebody else. So an NFT could be anything could be a digital piece of clothing could be an image, you can even tokenize objects in the physical world and make them in FTS, right. So that is one process that we are slowly seeing how NF T's become more than for example, we see a lot of people talking about the board apes or cool cats. There's so many profile projects as they are called that they're super popular and they generate billions of in trade. But NF T's are way beyond that. You can have physical objects as NFT's you can have virtual clauses NF T's you can Have VIP passes, like tickets experiences triggered by NF Ts. So they're technically I see them as portals for virtual experiences in virtual worlds within the blockchain. It's made more complicated, right?

WTiN
Yeah. I mean, I asked one question, and I've suddenly got like a million other. But no, I think you're clearing that up quite nicely. Thank you. So I guess one thing I really wanted to ask you about today, which I think all of our listeners who are in the textile and apparel industry will find quite interesting is the decentraland Metaverse Fashion Week, which took place only a couple of months ago. end of March, I think it was. So I believe this is the first time you've done this. Is that right?

Giovanna Graziosi Casimiro
Yes. In this size and scale? Yes. There was in the in the previous two years, like there was some activity but but not the way we did. And this was a very pioneering event.

WTiN
And so when and why did you decide to launch this? I mean, was it have anything to do with like, COVID? And the fact that you couldn't actually meet physically? I mean, yeah, what was the reasoning behind it?

Giovanna Graziosi Casimiro
The actual reason was pretty much the community of creators in decentraland. Actually, we we did, we did realise how powerful the creation, the fashion digital fashion was already in the platform in the end of last year, and the truth is, and the central and the users and the districts that exist in that world, they are super active in creating digital clothing, and associating digital clothing to the user's identity, how they express themselves, and associating that with events. So for example, if, let's imagine, Dua Lipa comes to decentraland, and she makes an event, she can create her own virtual clothing collection, which will kind of booster her community and the sense of belonging. So we realised that was already happening a lot in decentraland. And we use that as an inspiration. And we said, Okay, so let's do a big event where we can actually connect to the community of creators that already exist in the platform. And they know a lot about Metaverse, digital fashion and traditional physical brands that have been trying to actually enter the ecosystem and and then we can really create this first bridge that in a larger scale between these two worlds, that they actually belong to the same world in the long term. And that's how it all started.

WTiN
So for those who don't really know about what happens during this week, was it very similar that you would go into decentraland? And I don't know there was one catwalk somewhere that was a I don't know, another house showing a line somewhere else. I mean, how did it actually look and how do people experience it?

Giovanna Graziosi Casimiro
Well, the event it was pretty much like a very diverse and plural event. And there was so many activities. So pretty much our our goal was to create districts in which people could feel welcome to see digital fashion and what their brands were creating. So the centralised Foundation created one luxury fashion district in collaboration with Metaverse group, which is a real estate agency in the central London in the metaverse and we created another space called wearable fresh drip zone. That was a streetwear and digital fashion space more for new designers and very edgy brands. And then we made an open call for our community and then we had so many other spaces created during that time. And then within those spaces, you could go to digital shopping like you could go for virtual pop up shops we created for the brands inspired in real like physical spaces like Avenue mountain in Paris. We created catwalks, I think that was really a centrepiece that you could see this runaway shows from brands like Dolce Gabbana at through, we had amazing shops created, for example, for gopay, which is a big name in the hotel Kotsu. So I think that we really tried to cover not just the catwalks and the shopping experience, but as well bring panel talks about fashion and what is happening with fashion and web three, and a lot of after parties because I think after parties are a big part of the culture in the web three everybody wants to go to virtual concerts, where their virtual clothes and have fun with their friends.

WTiN
Right. Okay. Now, I mean, I have one big question around this, which is, do people genuinely like doing this? Because, for me, I'm not a gamer, or I'm not a massive social media. I mean, I have my own Instagram and things like that, like most people do. But I personally can't imagine sitting at a computer or on your phone and watching a fashion show or going to an after party, but in reality, you're just sat in your house. I mean, maybe I'm just Pretty old fashioned and need to get with the times. But I mean, what are the what would like people's first thoughts about this Metaverse Fashion Week? How do people interact with it? And do you reckon they'll come back?

Giovanna Graziosi Casimiro
Well, I think that people will come back because after, after the first time people started understanding that is not really a scary thing is actually a space where you can evolve who you are, you can expand your identity, you can make friends. And I do feel that brands, especially in the amount of recession, weak was a great opportunity for brands to to strengthen their relationship with their customers, right? So when you go to the metaverse, it's different than being in your home or is different than going to a physical space because you can defeat the laws of physics, you can play with the surroundings in a completely unexpected way. So the way I see it is that even though there is a lot we can do in the physical world, and that will never disappear that will never be replaced. But he can be enhanced by the experiences on the metaverse. And I think that's pretty much what we saw. And this is the sort of invitation I make all the time to people that you can do, you can expand your sense of reality by being the metaverse and then you can play with it, you can know more your brand, you can have double of the experience you'll have in your physical store by going to a physical store and then going to your digital store and do shopping there as well. So I do feel it's an extension of what people know. And they can really expand who they are in this space. And and there's networking in general with other people.

WTiN
Yeah, I hadn't thought about it like that, actually. You mentioned there that quite a big thing for fashion brands is kind of like enhancing that connection with their consumers in the brand wellness. Would you say that's like the number one reason why these companies should invest in the metaverse? Or are there kind of other incentives or benefits to doing so?

Giovanna Graziosi Casimiro
It depends definitely from a branding marketing point of view. Getting closer to your customers and giving back to them by putting them in a first person experience, I think should be definitely one of the priorities. Because more and more we see that the new generations are coming with a sense of community. So when a company, for example, brand launches an NFT collection of any kind, it has to be backed up by a sense of community, you cannot just throw something out there that is purely commercial. But it has no connection with a group of people who specifically or has the participation of a community, right to strengthen that idea. So I think more and more brands will co create with their community. So yes, it's one of the priorities for sure. But then, as a designer, I do feel that another priority could be expanding your creative vision of the world of your own collection efforts and expanding the visual narrative of a brand. Because when you go to the metaverse for a creator, a designer, it's really infinite, the amount of possibilities of what you can create and how you can express yourself. And even though we have some technical challenges today, they're going to be over overcome in the next years, and then creators will have more and more freedom. So I think those two points are very key, how you get closer to your cost customers and consumers and how they're going to relate with the brand and how it can grow that and creating with total freedom, you know, as a designer.

WTiN
Okay, so in this fashion week, that's just gone. Then, when I didn't know you mentioned Dolce and Gabbana, were they showing the same clothes that they had, I don't know in actual Paris or New York Fashion Week, or was it like a completely different collection where they had got that freedom to design whatever they want that maybe you couldn't actually make him reality? Because I didn't know you couldn't knit something in that way or the materials were just a bit too far fetched.

Giovanna Graziosi Casimiro
So it was a mix, actually. So add through presented a collection that you recently launched, so we adapted preexisting collections from their cookies and then we made the overall runaway shoe inspired on that, but Dolce Gabbana they really did an entire new collection inspired on the metaverse and their proposal was very, very edgy and very fun because they replaced the models for cats. So they were class dressed in both Qin Gabbana outfits created only for the metaverse and I think that's part of their though Chen dng family NFT collection strategy because I do feel that some of those garments, they actually will be eventually redistributed to their logit and Gabbana community. So that was very interesting because it Stefano Gabbana created this completely new collection in such a short time, and he came with completely new statics for a runaway show. And the same about animations we're so used to see models moving in a certain way. And for both events add through and Dolce and Gabbana, we created completely unexpected animations for those models would even be more of like they would pose in completely unexpected ways they would fly, they would float in the space, they will spin. So it was really fun.

WTiN
Yeah, I can't imagine like Gigi Hadid or Kendall Jenner doing that. Could you?

Giovanna Graziosi Casimiro
I would love to see, like I did flying. It will be fantastic. Maybe next year?

WTiN
Yeah. Now you mentioned there were a few, I don't know technological limits that you're hoping to overcome in sort of in the future? What are the kinds of like main teething issues you noticed this year? And and? And how do you already think perhaps next year's show could be even better?

Giovanna Graziosi Casimiro
So one of the things that what you observed is that definitely the event had so many events going on, that maybe some users felt a little overwhelmed about what to go or what to see where to go, where should I be right now. So I think that it's very important that next year, we bring maybe a curator ship that facilitates a little bit more of the agenda towards our audience and what they want to see and where they should be right. And one big lesson learned for sure, is expanding a little bit our our pipeline in terms of time, so we only had like three months really, to produce, talk to the brands onboard everyone and make the metaverse Fashion Week this year. But for next year, the goal is to do an open call for brands already in August, early August, end of July 2022. So then we have almost six months, if not more, to really bring their concepts to life. And the third point that it is a desire that I think all the people involved in the event want is to make a bridge in between physical and digital experiences. So we're trying to figure out how we can make physical experiences available also that connect that audience to something going on in decentraland. And back and forth really making this physical fashion experience and unique event. So we're working on those ideas and improving the overall experience for users. Because that is always a priority. I would say.

WTiN
Now that we've proved that the metaverse Fashion Week is like one way that the textile and apparel industry can kind of get involved in this sort of virtual world. And I've also been reading up that decentraland kind of offers other opportunities for the industry as well. So for example, I read somewhere that big brands such as forever 21 And Estee Lauder, now, you know actually purchasing real estate in decentraland to set up virtual headquarters. Is that Is that an actual trend, then? Are people really investing that much time and effort into this?

Giovanna Graziosi Casimiro
Well, I think that it is a number that is growing. And for brands, it is really I think in an experimental phase to see how they can invest in those spaces what they can build. But yes, I think it is a trend that it is growing more and more we see brands interested in investing and and that's interesting also, because at the same time that they are purchasing maybe a asset that by itself can value in the long run, right? Because when you buy a virtual piece of land any any one of those virtual worlds, you're technically buying an asset that has a potential to grow in terms of value, but they're technically facilitating a space that is floral, they can do whatever they want to do in that space, or they don't have to do anything with that space. It can they can just leave it as an acid. But I think it's it's a way for brands to really try new ways to communicate who they are and, and and to start really building that community with their users. And specifically Estee Lauder case. I think it's extremely interesting. Because for a lot of people maybe beauty beauty industry doesn't fit. So well like the metaverse because you don't really need, like beauty products or cosmetics in that space. You really don't consume those pieces maybe. And but but the truth is they proved that the experience they created for the metaverse Fashion Week was one of the most successful is in terms of PR and marketing, like return. And that's fantastic. And and this is what I think that more abstract and imaginative those brands go and bold they are in the matters, more return they will have. So I think that this number is growing. And it's going to be definitely a trend to see brands entering the space and trying to build things that maybe relate to physical products they sell, but go out of the box that are really out of the box and they really surprise people and gamify the shopping experience.

WTiN
I'm just trying to get my head around how companies could potentially make money from the metaverse. So I can understand how you might benefit from like marketing. And you know, if you've enhanced that community, people are likely to stay loyal to that brand and purchase something in reality. But are people actually buying physical clothes and only physical clothes and have people quite happy to put their disposable income on something they're never actually going to wear in real life? If you see what I mean?

Giovanna Graziosi Casimiro
Yeah, I think this is a big challenge for users maybe first to foresee the future of digital clothes in the physical spaces, and also for brands to understand why their customers will actually start investing money on it, but I see in this way, the metaverse is not that different than what we used to do like what is ecommerce, right websites that allow people to buy online, they didn't destroy the actual fact like the act of buying clothes, they enhanced it, they expanded the possibility to generate revenue. And the metaverse or the web three is not that different, it's pretty much the same idea. But in a different user experience that is more personal, that is more customised and more engaged. So in terms of generating revenue, there are many ways I think in the next years, we will see brands, definitely selling digital garments, digital products, right? That they will be more of, maybe an extension of what they have in their stores, or a completely new collection that enhances the brand itself. And that is a digital asset that could be growing in value like an NFT in the long run as well. So people may feel engaged to buy those and were in the metaverse, but there will be physical experiences too. For example, we did have that in the metaverse fashion week in which a company called Busan Protocol, or worked with Tommy Hi Fuger, for example, and cider and some other interesting brands to allow people to buy an NF T dress. And that will ship directly to their homes, the same version of that dress but physically, right. So you can enable even faster shopping a more gamified shopping that actually will sell physical products. So there's so many possibilities. And one less common is that today we see digital fashion as something very isolated in our computers, right. But in the next 10 years to come. I'm a big believer that those digital pieces will come out of the screen through our phones with augmented reality, or maybe even other devices that are even smaller that we'll be able to wear that will make the clothes we have physically with that second layer of digital clothes, so they will become part of our regular daily life. They will not be just isolated for our avatars.

WTiN
Yeah, I think that's quite interesting, actually. Because there is it the fabric and I think one of their reasons for sort of investing in digital clothes, or whatever the correct term is, is that you could use augmented reality so that you only have buying something to wear on Instagram. And it doesn't matter if you only wear it once then because it's digital and you're not throwing away a got a garment. So they've kind of added the whole sustainability element into it as well. I mean, do you have any thoughts on that? Do you kind of agree with them? Or what?

Giovanna Graziosi Casimiro
Yeah, I think that I agree with them. I think that the fabric and is one of those pioneering brands that they're really trying to create something unique, and they have a very interesting vision about how digital fashion will unfold. And its character on sustainability. I know that they are doing a big research on how they can make it more sustainable. And my opinion is there's always a backlash about oh, but NF T's they really consumed a lot of energy to be minted. And that's partially true in this right moment. We are. But all the blockchain community, for example, has been working in solving this problem. And we're going to see and we are seeing solutions more and more of like less expensive chains on the blockchain that allow transactions to be cheaper and sustainable. So this is really because we are in the beginning of this process, that people should be concerned about environment. But I see fashion really becoming super sustainable if they become digital. And I think we need to be critical and realistic in looking those numbers because digital fashion has a cost for the environment. But is it the same cost that let's say fast fashion has in the environment, I think socially economically and environmentally in the last, let's say 50 years? So I think this is this is a critical thinking we have to use to evaluate the sustainability of fashion. And I do have a similar vision then the fabric and team I think it's it's going to be an essential part of our daily lives. Then it's going to be associated to how we dress in our regular days and go into work and to school and so on.

WTiN
Okay, right now, at the moment, from what I can see my end, companies are kind of going in one of two ways when it comes to the metaverse, they're either, you know, just hedging their bets and kind of seeing if someone else will do it. And maybe they'll just wait and see if they've been successful. Or you've got people on the other end of the spectrum who are literally jumping in and trying to lead the way. For those who are waiting in seeing, do you have any advice for them? I mean, what other potential risks that you think they're probably worried about? And yeah, do you have any advice?

Giovanna Graziosi Casimiro
Yeah, I think the first one is I understand their fear. I think that as a creative and I came, of course, from from the XR industry before working at the central and in the blockchain community, I do understand that they are trying to observe to see how it will go, how it will shape, but the only way for us to really achieve great results is everybody building things together. So my advice is, you really don't need to spend a lot of money to create experiences in the metaverse at this stage we are right now, I think the investment is quite reasonable for brands, especially if they have let's say, r&d budget or marketing budget. So I would invite them to really approach the creators in those communities, we have so many 3d studios that have been doing marvellous work, and pushing the brands to, to really challenge themselves in creating something unique. And I think after you go through that experience, you'll discover that, okay, so it's not really this sort of beast that we can contain, you know, like, no, it's something that actually is a tool of communication and sales for any brand. So my advice is always deeper toes into this water a little bit, try something modest, try to maybe leave a space, a temporary event, and slowly understand how this world works. Because I think educating your team is the only and best way to really understand what is coming and not feel afraid of it. And I think it's worth it approaching those creators. And that's what the centralised Foundation does, pretty much we we connect brands with our community. So our community can create things for brand. So I think that's pretty much it try and you will get interesting results. And interesting feedbacks.

WTiN
Well, we're running out of time now, unfortunately. But last question then. And you've kind of hinted at your vision throughout this entire podcast. But I mean, where do you imagine? Or how do you imagine decentraland. And the metaverse will be a part of the fashion industry in the next five to 10 years. I mean, what's a realistic vision that you have?

Giovanna Graziosi Casimiro
Oh, for sure. I think that virtual worlds including the central end will be a great space for brands to showcase their collections and to help to sell their collections in a physical mode. So I think that's definitely we're going to see. And also I think it's going to be a space for creators and designers to expand their vision on the collections, they will be showing physical events. So I see more and more as a space where let's say you have Paris Fashion Week, and then you're going to have a digital version of that happening simultaneously that show additional elements or may show a complimentary collection. So I think is going to be definitely a twofer sales, marketing and expansion of the creative vision of those brands. That is something I think it's very feasible and very grounded, that you're gonna see happening the next year or so.

WTiN
That's quite exciting, actually, because I'm a lot of these physical fashion shows there, obviously for VIPs. And someone like me will probably never get invited to them. So I guess it opens up access as well to the whole community, anyone who's interested in fashion?

Giovanna Graziosi Casimiro
Absolutely. And I think that was one of our main points in the metaverse Fashion Week that everyone is a VIP. And I'm sure for brands that's very powerful too, because you can still keep your VIP access for certain events and certain communities or journalists or collaborators, but we still can open up part of your collection to the whole community and to the whole internet, which is a very powerful media move. Right. So I do see that happening, for sure. It's very exciting.

WTiN
Well, GG, I think that's all we've got time for now. But I mean, I know it's we've only been on this for about half an hour, but I'm getting quite excited. And again, I feel like I have so many more questions now than perhaps I did at the beginning. But I mean, just thank you so much for coming on the show and providing your insights and you know, clearing up a few myths I think about the metaverse and and what it could do for the textile and apparel industry. Just thank you very much.

Giovanna Graziosi Casimiro
Thank you. It's my pleasure. And I hope we really dismiss defy more and more the metaverse because it's just a continuation of the narratives and the creation we have in our imagination illusion as a continuum of what we know is not something that we don't know is part of us it's beautiful.