Ep.160: Expectations for sustainable fashion

This transcription has been AI generated and therefore may have some inaccuracies.

Ep.160: Expectations for sustainable fashion

WTiN speaks with Jan Hilger, head of business unit apparel and textiles and Elvira Goloda, senior regulatory and product stewardship manager at Livinguard Technologies.

WTiN: Hello and welcome to WTIN's Industry Experts podcast. I'm Abi, WTiN's Features Editor and your podcast host. In this series, we speak with industry professionals from trade organisations and brands to startups and manufacturers about the trends shaping the textile and apparel industry and the businesses role within it. We cover everything from circularity and recycling for automated We cover everything from circularity and recycling to automation and AI. We quiz the experts in the field about their products and ideas across the huge spectrum that is the textile industry.

In this episode, we are joined by Jan Hilger and Elvira Goloda from Livinguard Technologies. Elvira is Senior Regulatory and Product Stewardship Manager at Livinguard, while Jan is Head of Business Unit Apparel and Textiles. Livinguard Technologies is a Swiss materials technology company focused on enhancing functionality and performance of materials through more sustainable and safer technologies. In this episode we speak about compliance and certification, framing how brands and manufacturers integrate sustainable technologies into their supply chains. We touch upon the roadblocks facing sustainable integration and how process technologies and products can help businesses prepare for upcoming compliance requirements. We also speak at length about some of Livinguard's products such as BetterFresh and how they are being used in the industry and to what benefit.

Hi Jan and Elvira, thank you for joining me today on WTIN's Textile Innovation Podcast. Please, could you briefly introduce yourselves and explain your current roles at Livinguard Technologies? Jan, let's start with you.

JH: Yeah, thank you. My name is Jan Hilger. I'm, let's say, a textile veteran. I spent my whole life in the textile fashion apparel industry, mostly on the sourcing and operations side, having worked with companies like Hugo Boss. On the sourcing and operations side, having worked with companies like Hugo Boss, Escada, Triumph, Calvin Klein, Tommy Hilfiger. And I joined Livinguard in January 24 to take the company into the textile network. And it has been a great experience since, and we accomplished a lot of market presence. So happy to explain and talk to you today.

WTiN: Amazing. And Elvira, if you could briefly introduce yourself and explain your current role, that'd be fantastic.

EG: Of course, Abi. Well, first off Thank you so much for having us today. My name is Elvira Goloda and I'm responsible for handling the regulatory affairs at Livinguard. So I deal with the chemical compliance, authoring safety data sheets, managing our certifications, and of course, their endless renewals. And as well as I work cross-functionally with the marketing team for our technical communications. And I work closely with the R&D team to make sure that the future innovations that we create are also compliant and have the necessary documentation.

WTiN: Amazing, thank you both. And just before we get started into the main bulk of our conversation today, if you could outline Livinguard's current work and areas of focus, that'd be fantastic. I don't know who is best placed to answer that one, so I'll let you guys I think Jan would be very helpful. Let you guys decide.

EG: I think Jan would be best suited for this one, seeing how he has been part of Livinguard a little bit longer than I have.

WTiN: Awesome. Yeah, Jan, to you.

JH: Yeah, the great thing about Livinguard is that it's using a joint technology platform that is developing very different areas of application. So the technological platform is more or less always based on the same innovation. The areas that we are currently operating in is mostly in the field of the textile industry, but they are in all kinds of applications from textile, worn textile apparel, sports, fashion, workwear, also to the area of home textiles. But Livinguard is active in many other areas like air filtration, like plastics, like medical applications, and women's menstrual hygiene products. So it's actually a very wide field with a nearly unimaginable chance for two applications, whatever technology can be applied. Our aim is to make the planet a better place and to bring our technology in as many areas as possible.

WTiN: Amazing very diverse. And today we're going to focus on how process technologies and products can help businesses prepare for upcoming compliance requirements and, you know, potential geopolitical challenges. So I feel you're really well placed to delve into these difficult subjects. So to begin with, what's in your opinion, do you believe manufacturers and brands should look for when choosing a textile type should look for when choosing textile technologies? Maybe, yeah, Elvira is that one for you?

EG: Sure, I can start and if Jan has something to throw in he definitely can. Amazing. I think this is an interesting question because you have a business side of it and then you have the regulatory compliance side of it, which may be the less exciting of the two. Current or traditionally rather, I think it was really performance and pricing that were key. So you wanted to have a product at the end that performed really well and flew off the shelves and something that was going to be very economic for the company, very profitable as well. And today we certainly see a shift that is going towards Documentation, chemical compliance globally, so you can't just be local. Compliance globally. So you can't just be looking at one single market. Global landscape is while there are certainly lots of harmonizations across the world, if you are involved in compliance yourself, I think you can also shake your fist at all of the different regulations and chemistry databases all around the world. So you want to have a chemistry that will have, or a product that will open as many doors for you without causing you hurdles to jump over. So you want something that is, like I mentioned, chemically compliant with the documentation behind it. You want something that will be compatible with your existing manufacturing processes, because again, we still want to keep the economic part of this alive and well, and you want to have a lot of credible test data that will back up any claims that you make or anything that you advertise, because with the Emco directive that just came into force in September of 2026. Right now, we're moving away from general eco language and more towards very specific, substantiated claims. And you definitely need the data behind that.

WTiN: That's really interesting. And Jan, is there anything that you would like to add to that?

JH: Yes, I think adding to what Elvira explained, which is absolutely true, when I compare The operational work of fashion companies or textile companies, it has become, with every decade, way more complex. All the regulations that have to be fulfilled or that you have to comply to. And so, our aim at Livinguard is to make it easier for companies to fulfill those requirements and to be sure that they have something that is, in a way, bulletproof as a technology and application. On the other hand, we also see that. The actual market environment is extremely difficult. I mean, not only in Europe, but worldwide. Many companies are struggling also with financial challenges. So whatever we can add that makes their life easier and makes their products more performant is, let's say, helping and supporting to gain market share, to come back to strength. And I think these are all areas where LivingGuard can do a big deal in helping and supporting in this very, very difficult market that we're having at the moment.

WTiN: That's fantastic. I just want to pick up that line of thought a little bit there. How can Livinguard technologies help customers plan and stay ahead of compliance requirements? I know you've both touched upon it, but if you could go a little bit deeper, that would be great. Yet again, I don't know who's best to start. Maybe Elvira?

EG: Of course, I'd be happy to. The most important thing for our product development is we really strive to build compliance and documentation right into the process rather than treating it as just an afterthought when it comes to compliance and chemical compliance obligations. So we are very actively working with our customers to provide them this chemical and safety documentation as well as certification support. Lots of customers, perhaps Jan can. Can go further into detail about this, but lots of customers are members or partners with different certification schemes. So we work with. BlueSign, with GOTS, the Global Organic Textile Standard, with OEKO-TEX, ECO PASSPORT, with ZDHC, which I think cover quite a good amount of certifications in the textile industry. We also are very ready to provide performance and durability evidence with our applications lab in Mumbai. And we also give a lot of clear guidance on what claims can be made. If we're doing ingredient branding, for example, we're very happy to provide hang tags with the substantiated claims or if necessary to clarify with whatever certification scheme. If the word choice is acceptable for them, I know blue sign for example this year also underwent quite a large revision where they are being more deliberate with what claims are being said on their property are deliberate with what claims are being said on their products, whether that's a chemical product, whether that's an article or a finished good. And of course, by design, our technologies are biocide and heavy metal free. So already we avoid a lot of obstacles when it comes to, for example, traditional odour control options that do have a little bit of extra administrative burden on top to it.

JH: I mean it's very obvious when you walk through an actual sourcing fair or a textile fair, you will see the same seals nearly on every booth. And this has become like an entrance ticket to even sell anything. So some of the organisms, or let's say seals that Elvira mentioned, like blue sign or OKEO-TEX or a ZDHC rating is a chaos criteria for being able to sell anything No publicly listed company or no company that is in a way responsible for presenting what they have in their products will even look at your product if you don't have those certifications in place. So it's an absolute requirement. And in the end of the day, it gives companies a certain safety that once the products that they buy and they bring into the market comply to these requirements, they are on the safe side from their Diligence perspective. 

WTiN: I really like the fact that you both spoke about certifications and I do want to come back to that. But just before we go into certifications, in your opinion, which regulations should your customers be paying close attention to and how can you help prepare them? There's so much going on, especially, in Europe. So it would be great to get your insights on which Key bits of legislation you think your customers should be most aware of. Maybe again, Elvira, you might be best placed to start us off with that one?

EG: Happy to. I would first like to go back to the previous question and I'd like to add some details to Jans. Let me see how I can go back here in time. I would just also like to add that As a chemical supplier, it's also very important for us to communicate to our customers that we just as the chemical supplier cannot ensure compliance for the customer. And while certification schemes certainly help with a lot of due diligence and, um. And chemical safety assessments, Sourcing the whole process was going Outsourcing the whole process, what's going on in the production, what's going into the fabric. All of the inputs are being assessed to meet the blue sign criteria. However, this will never be enough to fully replace the due diligence a company has to do on its own. At the end of the day, the finished product compliance always remains with the company. So it's very important here that the company does its own due diligence as well and gathers the information, gathers the documentation. So it's very important that the customer at the end of the day can stand behind their product and demonstrate that they in fact did their own due diligence and they stand happily behind their products.

WTiN: Amazing, and just going back to that regulations question, what regulations do you think your customers should be paying closest attention to attention to. Of course closest attention to?

EG: Of course, this is a very interesting question because like I mentioned earlier, there are so many regulations worldwide and sometimes it feels like they spring up like mushrooms after a heavy rainfall. It's always something new and oftentimes it's maybe a revision or an update. Obviously in If we're focusing on Europe, a really important one is REACH. And REACH does add new chemicals to its, or new substances to its substance of very high concern list, the candidate list. And I think we had, it's usually twice a year. And the last one was February, 2026, where I believe N-hexane was added to the list. It is due for another update at the time of recording. October 2026, it hasn't been announced yet, but definitely. There should be most likely an update there. And just as a reminder, for substances that appear on the candidate list, it is not like you are not allowed to use these anymore. It's rather you have certain obligations that come with it, and it's a little bit of more administrative work. For example, you have this duty, this obligation to inform if you have more than 0.1% of a substance of very high concern to your downstream suppliers. So always be checking reach and making sure that your, you make sure that your chemistries that you use or in your, you just want to make sure that you're compliant with reach as that is the legislation for chemicals in Europe. When it comes to textiles specifically, I think everyone's eyeballs should be glued to the ESPR, the Eco-Design for Sustainable Product Regulation. There is lots to talk about there. So Currently it is already in force, but it is quite a bit of a bare bone regulation and the details of what exactly it means for companies will be coming out in the so-called delegated acts for textiles. Specifically, they're treated as a priority product group and currently this delegated act for the the textile sector is currently planned for the end of the year in 2027. So maybe Q3, maybe Q4. It's nothing set in stone, but that is the target that has been revealed. And this delegated act will specify what data fields, for example, of the digital product passport will have to include, what the data format will be, and other standards that need to be followed, which supply chain actors are responsible for providing that data, transition periods, deadlines Perhaps any sort of derogations. So it will be very, very crucial to follow that when it comes out. The digital product passport is also a very key part of the ESPR regulation. It did launch this summer, I believe in July 2026, only for the battery group. So it's not quite made its way to textiles right now. It's in a, I don't want to say beta phase. But almost a trial phase to see how battery producers will be using it and if there's anything else that needs to be ironed out. But the digital product passport is really intended to strengthen supply chain transparency, consumer information, as well as compliance with EU in the single market. So it really wants to harmonize all of this information that is very easy for other. Downstream users Consumers, upstream users, whatever the case may be, that the data will be very accessible and it will be all online, hence the digital part of it. So that makes it a lot easier to also keep track of instead of having to file a lot of papers away. There's also another interesting regulation, if you will, which is not really a regulation, it's more of an add on to the waste framework directive. So, differing from a regulation. A directive in the EU interpretation is basically a set of minimum criteria that needs to be transposed into national law by individual member states, and they have a little bit more freedom. Whereas a regulation needs to be adopted as is, so it's a lot more harmonised. But with EPR, the extended producer responsibility, producers making textiles available on the EU market will have to cover the costs for the collection, sorting, and the collection of textiles recycling. There will be Sorting, recycling, there will be, I mean, I guess the goal is to incentivize producers to make more sustainable, if you will. And I use this word sustainable in quotes because, you know, we now have to make substantiated quotes, but more eco-friendly than the conventional methods, of course. And each country in the EU will have a little bit of a different way of doing it. In France, for example, I think France has the EU currently one of the more or the most advanced EPR framework. So France wants to incentivize durability and recycled content. So, actually, if your products can prove this, that they have qualifying environmental certifications, they have increased durability, they have X amount of recycled content, you can actually get a refund for the amount of product you put on the market. And on the other hand, It also has a penalty system if your products have maybe metalloplastic fibres or electronics. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Christmas sweaters with built-in lights, but something of that nature, or if they hinder recycling, you actually have to pay a penalty for that. So in this way through EPR, member states are trying to incentivize more environmentally friendly. And again, I don't want to use these generic buzzwords, but for all intents and purposes, this is what I have to work with right now. So a little bit more sustainable in this direction, and each member state will have something different, which I can only imagine will be a lot of work for the brands who potentially want to apply for the bonus or a system if they have it. So I would just say get ready for that because that I feel is going to be a doozy.

WTiN: Amazing, thank you Elvira, that's a lot to think about there. Jan, is there anything that you would like to add to that?

JH: Yes, as Elvira I think explained very well as a jungle of regulations. And let's say an additional complexity is that we always have to be sure that we are complying with the rules that our customers for the markets our customers are exporting to. So if the products in the end go to the US or if they go to the EU or if they go to any other country there will be different regulations depending on the import market. So It's very crucial to have that on the radar and to Make sure that our customers can export their products into their target markets without any problems. And I remember that very well from when I was on the other side of the table in the fashion industry. There were even decisions made to not deliver to certain markets because the requirements would just add so much complexity on the process that it, let's say, doesn't pay the effort. That expected turnover in that respective market. So that's the good thing about the Livinguard technology it's actually very easy to apply and it's very easy to go along with the required regulations. So far, we have not encountered major problems from any of our customers, but it's really important to have that in mind and to make sure that we know where the products will end up and which markets they will be sold in.

WTiN: Fantastic. And you've both spoken about certifications previously, I mean, Elvira, you mentioned several ones, including Bluesign, OKEO-TEX, ZDHC. How important are certifications to customers? And can you tell me a bit more about how Livinguard Technologies is addressing this need? I'll let you guys decide who starts that one. I think Jan, you can take it away.

JH: Okay, I think the certain certifications are not important to our customers. I would even say they are crucial because without certain certifications they will not be allowed to bring products into the markets. So there are some, Elvira elaborated on the reach compliancy, so This is one of the regulations that is an absolute must. And how does living Guard help their customers provide this? We have chosen the most important certifications that have become like a global standard. So for us, the SETI HC classification is very important because this gives our customers a guarantee that our products are not causing any harm. Another one is Blue Sign, which has become something like the global standard for clean processes and clean products, as well as the Ecotec seal, which is also in many countries a requirement to show that on their product. So, Livinguard is helping their customers, or we are helping our customers, in already providing those very important seals so they don't have to go through another certification process. It's already in place.

EG: Yeah just to add to that, as I mentioned before, these certifications don't replace the regulatory compliance or claim substantiation for any of the marketing material, but it definitely helps get the foot in the door where you've done the initial check. Has been done for the brand, for the manufacturers, so they know that This is a product that is not expected to cause any sort of problems for them with recalls or whatnot. This should be clean. Like Jan said, well, clean is a big word when talking about chemistries, but at least for the impurities, any sort of substance of very high concern, they're not expected to be present. And this, for a lot of mills, for example, is very, very important. If you use a contaminated chemistry with some impurity that is for we can use PFAS right now because that's a very hot topic. It could take a lot of time, a lot of money to clean the machinery to remove this contaminant, and that's a lot of time as well where the machinery isn't working. So it's even more of a financial loss than it otherwise would have been. So it's very, very important to offer this peace of mind. But I would just like to again emphasize that even if you have all of these certifications, that's not automatically going to lead to a defensible claim. You still need to have the technical documentation, test evidence, and all of this background information to have a responsible product being marketed, or rather, have a product being marketed responsibly. And this is where, like Jan mentioned, we are very, very active with our customers and we help prepare the technical documentation for them so they already have this available to them.

WTiN: That's great. You've literally just touched upon my next question, which is fantastic. Obviously, you said you have to go further with test evidence, background information, and you've just mentioned that, but could you go a little bit further into how living guard accounts for this when developing products and marketing them to the industry like how do you get that test Evidence, the background information out to your customers?

EG: I think Jan could definitely provide his industry perspective when it comes to discussing more about our application lab where we do all the odour testing as well as we have a very positive report from Passion for Good where they actually did a third-party assessment of one of our dyeing chemistries plus dye?

JH: Yes, definitely. I mean when we work with a customer, it's always a very individual case. So there's nearly no standard process. Every customer has their own requirements, but usually, once the sales pitch is taken further, we are usually connected to the technical teams of the customers and we connect them to our science team in our laboratory, both in Switzerland as well as in India. And we also saw that customers have different testing requirements, what they want to see as approved. And to get our laboratory what they want to see as a proof. And to get our laboratory work certified, we also work with neutral certification auditing bodies to have a neutral and third party, how do you say, confirmation of our test results. So this is usually always asked, especially in the trial period when our product is, for example, when we apply our BetterFresh technology to a t-shirt, for example, there's a lot of laboratory testing and a lot of test varying. Before a product goes into production. So this is usually very crucial. And each, I mean, we see that maybe 80% of the requests are the same, but there's always a difference depending on which customer we talk to, which markets this customer is selling to and what the specific use of the product is. So already between a sports and functional product, there's a different requirement than if it's just fashion or underwear, for example. So it's very much tailor-made underwear, for example. So it's very, very much tailor made and it's always based on the requirements of the specific customer.

WTiN: That's fantastic. And just sticking with Livinguard's BetterFresh solution as an example, how easy is it to implement into supply chains and what benefits does it offer customers?

JH: Yeah, maybe I can take that.

EG: Yeah, sorry. Can I can I add some more to that last question? Yeah, of course. For one of our more popular products. Livinguard BetterFresh, it combines two and one functionalities. The first is odour control and the second is microfiber shedding reduction. And so if we sell this chemistry and our customers want to make claims for odour control or the microfiber shedding reduction, we have to make sure that we deliver validated and usable results that they can use to substantiate such So it's not like we create our own method. It's not like we create our own methods and hope for the best that everything will be fine and dandy. On the contrary, we are very much sticking to well known, trusted methodologies from ISO, from the AATCC, and we make sure that our test methods are the industry standards for whatever we're testing. That's very, very important. And on the other hand, we also have dying auxiliaries like. Livinguard EFD or Livinguard PlusDye, which have lots of claims around water, energy, or process savings. And this, like Jan said, is much more individual. So while for odour control and microfiber shedding, this is definitely something we can do in our laboratory for the process savings, that will very much have to be something a little bit more individual for the mill that is using our technologies. But what we can say is there have been third party validated test reports that show, like the Fashion for Good test report I mentioned, that really show a significant amount of savings. I don't have all of the numbers on hand. Maybe, Jan, you can jump in here, but it was something very, very wild. I think it was better than even what we were advertising with 60, 80% savings. But maybe, Jan if you have something to say about this with more concrete numbers.

JH: Maybe to add to that what Elvira said, I mean, the savings are, it's very individual to put the numbers because every country is different and also all the requirements of the savings. So what is the price of energy? What is the price of water? What we can say, and this is also confirmed in this Fashion for Good report, is that our technology and the dying side, is saving water is saving the amount of dye stuffs and for some countries like for example Tunisia. Waste water and the quality of wastewater seems to be one of the biggest challenges and as our technology has the potential to remove the salts from the cellulosic dyeing, this is taking away a big headache of many of the textile mills that are currently using container loads of salt that cannot be recycled, that cannot be reduced and are just adding toxic landfill. So getting rid of the salts in the dyeing process, in many economies, is an even bigger headache than just to provide... I mean, the savings are taken as a benefit on top, but solving this wastewater problem for many of our customers is even way more crucial, because with this they can fulfil the requirements of their large international customers, which for them is even more important than just proclaiming a saving, which is anyway happening, saving on water. Saving on energy and saving on the amount of dye stuffs that are being used. So this salt-free dyeing is the EFD technology and there's a pre-treatment for cellulosic dyeing. And on the other side of the post-reactive dyeing, we have our PlusDye product, which actually fixes hydrolysed dyes to the article. So you save a lot of energy in the reduction of washing. I don't know if you've ever purchased like a dark wash pair of jeans and you wash it at home and it just keeps bleeding and bleeding. So with plus dye, we would significantly reduce this because the hydrolysed dyes are now fixed firmly to the fabric. And here you can just think of how much water and energy is needed to go through. I think in conventional processes, it's maybe five, six washes, correct me if I'm wrong, Jan. Yeah. Yeah, easily five, six to eight washes. But the most important thing to remember, I think, even with all of this great test data that we have, is that the wording of the claims can never go beyond the evidence. And that's, I think, something that our customers and what I would love other manufacturers, brands to keep in mind. Is that very much the core principle? The wording of the claim should never go beyond the evidence. You asked about the ease. How easy it is for customers also to apply our technology. And that's, I think, the charm of how our products are designed. So if we look at the BetterFresh, it is applied in the process very, very easily. So it's applied to the textile side, usually together with the Softener bath. So there's no additional process step needed. It actually blends in the actual process. And that's something that makes it very easy for Textile mills to use and apply. The worst thing that you can do is if you bring a product to the market that requires a new capex or a new process step, that will make it way more difficult for mills to apply it because they're not really keen on adding to the actual process and maybe even adding costs. So, this is the absolute opposite of what we are doing. We are making processes easier andor we blend into the existing process so that no other process steps. Or no additional process steps are needed, which makes it easy to apply. And that's maybe the advantage because our scientists have industry expertise, they know how textile mills work, and they know how our products can blend into their actual way of working without disrupting what they already apply and what they already know.

WTiN: Amazing. And just sticking that line of thought. What roadblocks do you believe prevent customers from adopting sustainable and circular solutions into their supply chains? I mean, for example, it's commonly thought that more circular solutions can come at higher price points, but it'd be great to get your insights on that. Jan, let's start with you.

JH: So if we go along the process of a typical sales pitch, there are many roadblocks that need To be removed. I mean, first of all, the textile industry, even if the fashion industry is very dynamic and fast, the textile industry is in most cases very conventional and conservative. So, in order to overcome this, we have to first of all show that our product is working, that it is delivering the benefits. And this is, I think, also the nice thing about the textile industry. In most countries, the mills in between each other are very well connected. So what we have done, for example, is to create lead cases with major textile mills. And if this is working perfectly fine, the news is spreading, but it's really nearly impossible to get into the industry without a live industry working case. Another roadblock is that, of course, we're not alone in the market. And as a new kid on the block, when we have started our sales pitches, we first of all had to prove that we have a right for existence. So we needed to reach out to as many regions and markets as possible to get known, to get recognized as a name and as a viable alternative. And then, of course, I must say it's like in all areas, nothing works without personal relationships and personal network. The textile industry, after all Is still a very personal industry where a lot has to do with personal connections, with eye-to-eye contact, handshakes, personal meetings, and being there in the countries. So presence, partnership, relationship, trust are, in my opinion, the most important things when you run your sales, especially when you start as a new kid on the block.

WTiN: Amazing. Elvira, is there anything that you would like to add to that?

EG: I think technologies, this day and age, have so much that they need to deliver. Performance on costs, the process compatibility, compliance. All of these have to be delivered within the technology. So, again, we're moving just away from cost and performance. Now we have all of these extra musts that need to be fulfilled, whether that's certification. Extra musts that need to be fulfilled, whether that's certifications, performance evidence, substantiated claims, all of the regulatory documentation. And again, if you work in regulatory affairs, you know that there is a lot of documentation. So if a technology is missing any of these, then here's a potential roadblock where you need to then either apply for certification or if it's a process compatibility issue, you have to really evaluate whether or not. You have to really value or evaluate whether or not it's worth it to change the process. For example, for the salt free dyeing Jan mentioned with EFD, it's very different from a conventional reactive dyeing process. So it will require a change in the process. And here again, it will have to be evaluated whether or not this is worth it for the salt free dyeing alternative. On the other hand, with living. Guard BetterFresh, with Livinguard Plus Die, with Livinguard AO, all of these do not need to transfer or all of these do not need to change the process. So a roadblock could also be an opportunity, you know, as cliche as that sounds, if you want to disrupt the system.

WTiN: Thank you, Elvira. And then just to end our conversation you are heading to events and I'm aware when this podcast comes out you will have been to performance days but as you head into that what are some of the key conversations you are hoping to have? Jan again do you want to start off that one?

JH: Yes of course, Performance Days for us has become I would say the most important Fair format. The performance days differentiate from other fair. The performance days differentiate from other fairs because the audience is very knowledgeable, skilled, and as it's a very compact fair, it's also extremely efficient. So compared to other fairs, you have people that come to your booth that know exactly what they want. So the conversations that we're hoping to have also this time, I mean, many of our appointments are already pre-arranged so we have already filled our schedule with meetings of people that are coming specifically to meet us but in addition We of course hope that we trigger interest on our different technologies on both the dyeing side but also the odour control sites on our fresh. And better fresh front. And there we hope to get new contacts in the area of sports, workwear, function, outdoor. And our existing customer base of course is helping giving our new customers or potentially new customers that are interested in our technology, some confidence. And trust, because the names that we are already working with are all very reputable brands that have a high-quality approach and focus. So I'm really looking forward to the discussions that we will have in these two days. And I'm really, I'm very much sure that it will again be a very successful fair and another step forward for our company.

WTiN: Elvira, is there anything that you would like to add to that?

EG: For me, working my day-to-day on the regulatory compliance side, I spend a lot of time in front of lists of chemicals and lots of regulatory text. So any opportunity I have where I can be with other people face-to-face discussing our technologies or their technologies seeing what kind of compliance issues that they're having or how they're preparing for this onslaught of regulations, especially with the digitalizing everything and getting ready for ESPR and DPP. I'm just very, very happy to be out there with people in my field who also know the struggles of what it means to be in the compliance or the textile industry and the different challenges and opportunities that come with that. It's always a very, very interesting time for me. And like I said, always very happy to be away from the computer for a little bit.

WTiN: Completely get you with that one. Amazing thank you both so much. Thank you for joining me on WTAN's Textile Innovation Podcast. And I will just add that in the accompanying article, we will link to Fashion for Good's report. So thank you both so much for joining me today.

EG: Thank you so much for having us. Thank you, Abi.

JH: Yeah, thank you very much. Thank you, Abi. Thank you very much and looking forward to talking again.

WTiN: Thank you so much for listening. If you have any questions or want to learn more, you can follow us on LinkedIn at World Textile Information Network or you can contact me directly at content@wtin.com. If you are interested in sponsoring an episode of the podcast, please email sales@wtin.com. Thank you and we'll see you next time.